Acknowledgement of Country: As we share a yarn today, we honour the stories that have been told on this land for thousands of years and acknowledge the Ngunnawal people as the traditional custodians of the land we're recording on and we pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

James Reynolds: My mate's footy coach, was also our school teacher, pushed me towards lawn bowls because he could see it was a sport that had no barriers or boundaries to being on an equal playing field. A culture that's resonating in our sport is that there isn't any sort of segregation, in any respect; you're team. So that's pretty cool as well. I want it but I'm also respecting that you can't always win either. So, if I lose, if we don't get what we want, but we play really well and our best, then that's okay. So, that's what success is for me now. But it still hasn't changed; I want the ultimate.

Tim Gavel: It might change tomorrow. (laughter)

James Reynolds: (laughter)

Tim Gavel: Welcome back to On Side and our Commonwealth Games series, From Clean to Gold: Glasgow 2026. I'm Tim Gavel. Today we're joined by a remarkable athlete whose journey through Para lawn bowls has spanned decades, from early success as a teenager to representing Australia on the world stage and now continuing to push the sport forward. James Reynolds is not only a Commonwealth Games athlete, but someone who's helped redefine the perceptions of what's possible in bowls on and off the green. In this episode, we'll talk about his love for the sport, the role of integrity in competition, and why the integration of para and able-bodied athletes at the Commonwealth Games is so powerful. James, welcome to the podcast.

James Reynolds: Thanks Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Gavel: James, tell us about your journey. Where did it all start for you?

James Reynolds: It started many years ago, back in the early 90s, actually. I was 11 years old and I'm from the far south coast, Pambula, and I was finally allowed to play sports after many years of having operations or what have you and not allowed to participate. So, I took on as many sports as possible, and bowls was absolutely not one of those sports! But my mate's footy coach was also our school teacher, pushed me towards lawn bowls because he could see it was a sport that had no barriers or boundaries to being on an equal playing field, whereas all the other sports were, you were at a disadvantage, if you tried to compete against able-bodied people.

Tim Gavel: Because you were born with a spinal injury.

James Reynolds: Yeah, scoliosis. Severe scoliosis was the main disability. So yeah, I mean, I've played many sports, some alright, but not to be as on parity with people without disability. So, that's what bowls has given me. So yeah, started when I was 11 and yeah and by the age of 15, I was the top junior in New South Wales, won the state championships there, and that gave me the, I guess, the belief that I could take my juniors, in the sport, to the top level. I haven't represented Australia in mainstream, I've certainly represented my state at open level for many years, and obviously, moving forward, 2002 was when my first journey in Para bowls actually began, which was the Commonwealth Games and World Championships that year. 

Tim Gavel: Just to going back a little bit too, it sounds like you had a remarkable support network growing up. What a great community it was to encourage you to take part in sport, whereas, you know, many other places, bigger places, probably would have said, oh well do your best.

James Reynolds: Potentially, yeah. I think any person who's achieved in life will have many different touch points where they, people were giving them opportunities, with support and help and you've taken those opportunities. And I, if we start out with my parents, from birth, I guess they were trying to ascertain a lot of questions around why things happened the way they had from birth. And I guess the advice they were given, which sort of resonates with how they parented me, which was, if you would like a child with disability treat them as such, or if you want someone that isn't, then treat them as such. And I guess that's sort of how I was brought up, given many opportunities to be anything that was, in a safe way of course, but opportunities that everybody and anyone else in life has those opportunities to at least try. So, I guess that was a big a selling point. And then, yeah, look, the community was great. I still, whilst living in Canberra, I still call the far South Coast home, for obvious reasons. And it really was that community of people that accepted and gave me opportunities that I probably wouldn't have, as you say. School, like I was the first person with disability that went to the local primary school, for example, all those sorts of things. So, yeah.

Tim Gavel: In the end though, it's up to you, isn't it?

James Reynolds: Is up to you as an individual, but it's still getting those opportunities as well, yeah.

Tim Gavel: You're heading to your third Commonwealth Games, what makes representing Australia at the Commonwealth Games so special for you?

James Reynolds: Well, there are many reasons. I guess, as you say, it's my third Games and they're 24 years apart from first to third, and 12 years in-between. So, I guess, if I was asked that question three times over those three periods, I'd have a different answer. You know, at this point, my journey and career, this is the most special one. The sport in itself is much, much more high performance centred. The opportunities of what we've been given in the support and preparation is so strong. And I guess this time around, I know whatever happens, I will have done nothing or there will be no barrier, nothing left unturned, I've given myself the best preparation to obviously do my best. And yeah, I just can't wait to be honest. But yeah, back to your original question, pride in wearing the the jersey, I guess more and more I have to remind myself as I get older, because it's a real privilege.

Tim Gavel: And I guess going back to Pambula too, being a Commonwealth Games representative has a certain amount of status, doesn't it?

James Reynolds: Oh, it is. We've had a numerous great sportspeople come out of the far south coast. Even the young fella that won the gold in the Winter Olympics recently, you know, don't know him personally, but I know how much the community really respects and takes great pride in that.

Tim Gavel: What about the fact that the Commonwealth Games is an integrated program? So, does that make it really special because you're competing alongside able-bodied athletes in the team, amongst able-bodied athletes as well?

James Reynolds: Yeah, I guess so. I think back in 2002 that was a big shift, or the start of a shift, being able to be on the same team as your able-bodied sports compatriots. But again, I was so young, I probably didn't see it for what it was. 

Tim Gavel: You see it differently now though?

James Reynolds: Absolutely, especially being at different touch points in and out of the high performance system. So, when you move forward to today, and again if you look at the two periods from the start to finish, the access to services and supports is, woah, we could talk for a while about that. So, it's pretty amazing in that respect. I guess the thing that, from our sport specific though, in the bowls sport itself, there really wasn't any defined, 'oh, you're the Para team and you're the Open team' from the athletes. And I'm highlighting that because a number of those teammates at that stage, they've all gone on to become Australian coaches, Australian selectors, and so on. And so, the culture that's resonating in our sport, there isn't any sort of segregation in any respect, you're a team. So that's pretty cool as well.

Tim Gavel: I mean, that's really important though, isn't it?

James Reynolds: It is.

Tim Gavel: You know, to be treated as one team, as opposed to being separate.

James Reynolds: Yep. And it's not common in all sports at all.

Tim Gavel: No, it's not.

James Reynolds: Not at all. So, I think a lot of sports are really starting to grow into that aspect. But yeah, it's pretty cool.

Tim Gavel: You mentioned a moment ago about the elite nature of what you do. Tell us what you do to prepare for something like the Commonwealth Games, because you've got to be mentally prepared as well as physically and fine-tuned for competition.

James Reynolds: So, I'm very lucky, whilst I live in Canberra, I play and compete more so in New South Wales, but because I live in Canberra, I have a really great support in the ACT Academy of Sport. I've had them in the last three-and-a-half-years, their support. And so, everything from strength and conditioning, so as an example, today I started with my gym session for an hour, I then go and have a short session with my sports psychologist, you know, nutritionist. I'll go back in a couple of days from the medical side of things to prepare for a care pack and things like this to go overseas. You know, they're things that are extremely beneficial, help me with the best I can, I guess. With a person with disability, at my age, I'm definitely fitter and more capable in certain areas based on the services that I've got in the last, in receiving support. So, yeah, that's a big part of it.

Tim Gavel: Yes, and it does sound that because you are an older athlete preparing for your third Commonwealth Games, do you feel as though you're setting an example for some of the younger athletes, Para athletes coming through?

James Reynolds: I certainly hope so. I look at my standing in the game at the moment that I have an opportunity to set a legacy. I'm also, you know, a pathway coach. So, I like to think I'm living as much as what I'm preaching, and that is really embracing the high performance, living it in every respect. So, yeah, I'd like to think the young ones are seeing the standards that I'm, well not I, we, the top players are setting, that we have been very successful internationally, so that reinforces the work that we do. And so, I hope that the young ones do see that. And I hope they take my spot in the future because they'll get that spot because they'll earn it. And they'll then deliver the same sort of standards that we're delivering at the moment.

Tim Gavel: So, you're looking to instil the values that you have into these other athletes, and that includes integrity too, doesn't it?

James Reynolds: Absolutely. Every athlete, you know, fairness, you know, inclusion, the way you treat people, you know, being transparent. All those things that we talk about in our sport.

Tim Gavel: So, you talk about it a lot, do you, the integrity aspect in your sport? Is that something you talk about a lot?

James Reynolds: We have been, yeah. We've been very lucky to have a great partnership with the AIS and ASC, and so we've had numerous camps every year at the AIS. And so, the integrity, we do have numerous workshops on integrity, which has been quite beneficial. I guess one that sort of is Para-specific, at times, is sort of the medication kind of thing. So, I'm very lucky I don't use any sort of medications based from my disability, but for many athletes, that's not the case. So, learning how that functions, making sure we're doing the right things in relation to that world of living, with what they live with, is so important. And that's why the education. So that's just one area. Yeah, I mean, it covers so many things, doesn't it?

Tim Gavel: What does it mean to you?

James Reynolds: For me, it's more about, I guess I've thought about this in sport, fairness. The word fairness keeps coming to my mind. I guess in some sports which are more physically, if it's track and field or swimming or things that are very physically related, of course, there's the normal things that we talk about in integrity, in relation to fairness and what have you. In our sport it's more about the way that you play the game, you know, and the way that you approach it in a much more, in a way that's not against the norms or expectations of how it should be played, if that makes sense. So that's fairness. Fairness in Para is also around the, you know, how we are classified, being transparent about how you're, what you're living with and how you're living with it and making sure that, I'm sure the process always gets the right outcome regardless, but it's still something I think is very important.

Tim Gavel: What's the camaraderie between lawn bowlers right across the world. Is it good? Are there some there that sort of try and get into your head?

James Reynolds: The camaraderie is very strong. Yeah. I think you, I feel like, especially the last three years playing internationally a lot, there's a lot of respect amongst the different nations. Obviously, we try and knock each other off constantly, but I think if you play the game at the right standards, in the right way, and we certainly feel like we are, that sort of flows on to the other nations too. There'll always be that little edge in any competition, as there should be, but the respect, I think the key word is respect and there is a lot of that amongst the players, we often do, especially after an event, we generally have a great time not just during the event, but after the event. There are genuine relationships across the different nations.

Tim Gavel: And have you started to visualise what it might be like in Glasgow?

James Reynolds: Yeah, I have. It's a lot of work I've been doing to a point with my sports psych, but also, we've been very lucky to have a few visits to Glasgow as part of our selection process. So, we've been to the venue numerous times. Of course, it's not built, as in the rinks and what have you, but we've been to the, obviously, as far as the hall, where it's going to be situated. We've been to where our accommodation is going to be. But, you know, we've spent at least two full weeks, or three weeks, acclimatising to those surrounds and what have you. So, it's quite familiar for us. So, for me, it is easy to visualise a fair bit of what that will look like. Visualising success is obviously the key, obviously what we're about, so we'll see how that goes.

Tim Gavel: Yeah. What comes into your mind when you talk about what motivates you? Is it, I've got to do this for the people of Pambula, or I've got to do it for myself, or I don't like this person I'm playing against, I really want to beat them. What motivates you?

James Reynolds: That's a question that's changed over many years, the answer. I could absolutely tell you when I was younger, it was to prove people wrong. It was an absolute perception, when I was a kid that, you know, I couldn't tell you how many times I'd turn up for a game and they thought they'd won before they started, and then you'd wipe the floor with them. So that was my, what was my motivator when I was young. And then you've got a reputation, so that's now not going to work. So, then my next motivator was, you know, how do I be the best I can. At my point now, it's, I used to get really hung up on the results, and you put that undue pressure on yourself because you think about your family or your teammates or your coaches, and if you don't get the result, 'oh, I'm going to let them down'. And when you realise that's not actually how it works, realistically, then you realise that what you can control is your performance. So at the moment my motivation, yeah, I know what the ultimate goal is for us, but I think at the moment, the real thing I'm working on is being okay with making sure that that's my best performance and hopefully that's enough on the day, on the days that we play, because you can't always win, but you can control your performance, so hopefully that's enough.

Tim Gavel: The Commonwealth Games, are they the pinnacle for your sport?

James Reynolds: At the moment it is, yeah. We're not that far off, I mean, all sports are going so hard for obviously the Paralympics in 2032. But as a sport, we haven't been in the Paralympics for many, many years, or before my time, so, you know, early 90s, I think was the last time. So that could become our pinnacle, but, Commonwealth Games is absolutely our pinnacle. And then, of course, our World Championships and World Cups and those sort of events.

Tim Gavel: So, you sort of see beyond the Commonwealth Games for this continuous improvement in integration and acceptance, yeah.

James Reynolds: Absolutely. I mean, look, again, it's a privilege that, you know, we're even a part of the Games. I mean, there's so many sports that, unfortunately, due to the reduced nature of this particular Games, that are not there. So, when you say continuous improvement, yeah, of course, but we, it's also been respecting that we're lucky to be a part of it as it is. But I guess, yeah, the continuous improvement, I mean, they're so good as they are, the way that the CGA really help the sports to be the best they can be.

Tim Gavel: I guess beyond the Commonwealth Games, you'll be looking for organisations to emulate then what the Commonwealth Games does.

James Reynolds: Exactly right. Yep.

Tim Gavel: So, what does success look like for you in Glasgow?

James Reynolds: Yeah, that's what I was talking about before is that I know, I guess I was a bit hung up a few months ago on the opportunity. I came out of retirement, international retirement, back in 2022. One of my, a young girl I used to coach, when she was a kid, she won two golds at the 2022 Comm Games. She's from Goulburn, Ellen. And that sort of gave me the real drive to come out and have another go. You could see the high performance nature of the sport that hadn't quite been there before was really there now. So, that got me back and I guess the last three years I've really wanted to get those things I hadn't had before. I didn't have a Commonwealth Games gold medal. I didn't have a World Championship gold. I didn't have a World Cup. So, the last three years I, we won the Worlds in 23, and the World Cup last year, I couldn't believe it, we had the Para men's singles and the Para mixed pairs, which I was lucky enough to get both of those. And then also the MVP for the whole entire event with mainstream athletes as well. So, I guess what I'm showing you is that it'd be very easy for me this year to get hung up on that gold medal, because if I was to get that, there's nothing more that you could win. So, this is what I'm trying to explain. So, I want it but I'm also respecting that you can't always win either. So, if I lose, if we don't get what we want, but we play really well, and at our best, then that's okay. That's what success is for me now. But it still hasn't changed; I want the ultimate.

Tim Gavel: It might change tomorrow. Alright. Thanks very much for joining us, James. Quite a remarkable journey to get here in the first place. Obviously coming through, successful, retiring, coming out of retirement. Now you're going to your third Commonwealth Games.

James Reynolds: Very lucky and very lucky to have the opportunity to, Tim, and thanks for your time and having me.

Tim Gavel: No problems. Thank you very much for that. James's journey highlights not just excellence on the green, but the power of perseverance, integrity and inclusion in sport. His story is a reminder of what makes the Commonwealth Games so special, the coming together of athletes from different sports, backgrounds and disciplines, competing side-by-side on one stage. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you follow our Commonwealth Games series for more stories from our incredible team who are off to Glasgow. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

• Glasgow 2026 Commonwealth Games Series
  • No barriers ft. Para lawn bowler James Reynolds
  • Staying focused, competing proud ft. Sam Fricker OLY
  • The family behind the jersey ft. Claudia Marcks
  • Integrity at the heart of Team Australia ft. Petria Thomas OLY

• Online Safety in Sport Series
  • Building the future ft. eSafety Commissioner
  • The human impact of online harm
  • Education is key
  • Understanding the online risk landscape in sport

• Previous seasons and episodes
  • Past progress, future focus
  • The truth about sports supplements
  • Lauren Jackson’s play for equity & inclusion in sport
  • Positive test to positive influence – Cassie Fien
  • Collaboration key to combatting drugs in sport – Dr Lawrence Teariki Puni & John McLaughlin
  • Science behind SIA: Celebrating International Day of Women & Girls in Science – Dr Gemma Payne
  • Swimming in the integrity lane – Swimming Australia's innovative approach
  • Going global – Au Revoir to anti-doping stalwart Darren Mullaly

• Grassroots to Paris – Anna Meares & Sarah Kenny
• Play the Aussie Way – Ellie Cole, Cal Bruton & Harry

• Life after sport – Josh Bruce, Petria Thomas & Ben Hardy
• Speaking up about mental health – Craig Hamilton & Georgia Ridler
• Building the Matildas Legacy – Michelle Heyman
• Evolution of Para sport – Ella Sabljak & Richard Nicholson
• Safeguarding sport – Prof. Daryl Higgins, Kait McNamara & Emma Gardner
• Race, inclusion and education – Patrick Johnson & Caitlin Bassett

• Sport on notice – legal experts Richard Young & Adair Donaldson
• Supplements in sport and education challenges – Dr Sian Clancy, Alexis Cooper, Kelsa Ferguson, Cassie Fien & Nick Paterson
• Preventing a paradise for cheats – WADA president Witold Bańka, Ben Sandford & Bronwen Knox
• Science behind anti-doping – Dr Naomi Speers, Rima Chakrabarty & Dr Laura Lallenec
• Raising the athlete voice – Bronwen Downie, Jonathan Goerlach and Blake Gaudry
• Birmingham Bound – the golden hopeful and the cool Auntie - Ellie Cole & Daniela Di Toro
• From AFL to AAG - Eric Mackenzie & Petria Thomas
• Nerves of steel – Jackie Narracott, Paul Narracott & Michael Milton
• Brenton Rickard: low level, maximum difficulty (ft. Naomi Speers)
• Abuse, complaints and independence in sport – James Johnson, Emma Johnson & Jacob Holmes

• Clean and Gold: Kate McLoughlin and David Culbert
• Clean and Gold: Chris Nunn and Ahmed Kelly
• Clean and Gold: Lucy Stephan, Alex Purnell and Glenn Mitchell
• Clean and Gold: Raelene Boyle, Bronwen Knox and Milly Tapper
• Clean and Gold: Chris Bond and Kim Brennan (nee Crow)
• Clean and Gold: Anna Meares and Curtis McGrath

• Abuse, bribes and pressure – a ref’s calling - Ben Williams, Kasey Badger & Grant Jones
• Concussion the knock-on effect with Peter FitzSimons, Alan Pearce & Michael Milton
• Taking the gender out of ability with Kate Palmer, Cara Honeychurch and Tracey Menzies
• Sport and mental health with Mary Spillane, Rachael Sporn and Daniel Kowalski
• On Side Highlights 2 ft. Dr David Hughes, Michael Roeger, Steve Jackson & Cassie Fien
• On Side Highlights ft. Michael Gallagher, Carrie Graf, Eloise Wellings, Madeline Hills & Katrina Fanning
• Changing the game with Belinda Clark, Bec Goddard and Chris Butler
• Thrills, spills and more with Caroline Buchanan, John Aloisi and Chad Perris
• Equality: a past, present and future perspective with Carrie Graf, Keely Froling, Heather McKay, Eloise Wellings, Madeline Hills and Michael Crooks
• Setbacks, the lure of gold, and the “greatest” league final with Michael Roeger, Steve Jackson and Jessica Hansen
• COVID, a packed sporting calendar and sports’ survival with Craig Phillips, Melissa Breen and Cassie Fien
• Acceptance, racism in sport, the way forward – Katrina Fanning, Emma Johnson, Dr Adam Cook & Dr Naomi Speers

• National Sports Tribunal an “overdue” opportunity with National Sports Tribunal CEO, John Boultbee
• The danger for sport post-COVID-19 with Sport Integrity Australia CEO, David Sharpe
• No longer the enemy with State Managers of Doping Control, John Rhodes and Alisa Readdy
• ASADA’s “critical role” during sports' shutdown with ASADA CEO, David Sharpe and Chief Science Officer Naomi Speers
• Talking Lance Armstrong and death threats with USADA CEO, Travis Tygart
• “You don’t need to cheat to be good” with Olympic gold medallist, Petria Thomas
• Fighting a win-at-all-costs mentality with USADA’s Tammy Hanson and ASADA’s Alexis Cooper
• Crossing a dark line with dual Paralympic gold medallist, Michael Gallagher

• Celebrating 20 years of service with Chair of ASDMAC Dr Susan White
• Educating young athletes with DFSNZ Education Manager Sian Clancy
• Protecting athlete data with Chief Information Officer Andrew Collins
• A sneak peek inside ASADA with John Vandermeide & Michael Harkins
• Transgender issues in sport with Dr David Hughes
• From slow twin to fast lane with Clean Sport Educator Kurt Hurzog
• Behind the scenes with Doping Control Officer Margaret Anderson
• Commitment to clean fair sport with CEO of DFSNZ Nick Paterson
• Confidentiality undertakings with Olympic bronze medallist & Director of Sports Operations and Engagement Emma Johnson
• Science, culture & religion with scientist Shereen Naz
• Behind the scenes with Olympic bronze medallist & Director of Sports Operations and Engagement Emma Johnson

Acknowledgement of Country: As we share a yarn today, we honour the stories that have been told on this land for thousands of years and acknowledge the Ngunnawal people as the Traditional Custodians of the land we're recording on, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: We need to treat online environments with the same seriousness and value as physical ones. They really are now an inseparable part of the overall sporting experience.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: At the centre of all of these issues are people, or more than one person, who are impacted by this. So, it's really important, and the desire to respond quickly, but also in an appropriate way, is something that creates, I guess, challenges.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: You have rules of engagement on the field and on the court. We need to have the same rules of engagement applied to club and organisational sports where online abuse is concerned as well.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: As we look over the horizon, how can we identify where the gaps or the challenges are against the emerging trends so that we can be proactive, I guess, in shaping the system for the future, so we make it easier to navigate in a preventative way, but also, as needed, in a responsive way as well.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: What we have to do with any new technology is look at how we harness the benefits and minimise the risk and the harms.

Tim Gavel: Hello and welcome to On Sideand the final episode in our special Online Safety in Sport series, I'm Tim Gavel. Across this podcast, we've explored the risks, the realities, and the human impact of online harm.

Today, we're looking ahead at what it takes to build safer sporting environments into the future.

We're joined by two national leaders driving this work at a system level. Julie Inman Grant is Australia's eSafety Commissioner, heading the world's first government agency dedicated to keeping people safer online. Welcome to On Side, Julie.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: Thank you for having me, Tim.

Tim Gavel: Also joining us is Dr Sarah Benson, CEO of Sport Integrity Australia, who's leading the country's response to integrity and safety in sport. Thanks for joining us, Sarah.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Thank you, Tim.

Tim Gavel: Well, together they'll share insights on leadership accountability and what genuine system wide change looks like. So, firstly to you, Julie, we've heard across this series how complex and personal online harm in sport can be. What stands out to each of you as the most urgent issue we need to address right now?

Julie Inman Grant PSM: Well, I think we really need to embed the whole idea of online safety into everything we do in sport. I mean, sport now is deeply digital. It's live streamed. We're using group chats. We're using social media for players to connect with fans. And sadly, along with that comes online abuse. I think it really came to a head over Covid for us, when the only way that people could really engage with sport was through broadcast TV, and then the cheapest seats in the house became the internet.

So, what I think we really need to do is we need to treat online environments with the same seriousness and value as physical ones. They really are now an inseparable part of the overall sporting experience. We want fans to enjoy it. We want players and officials, including referees, to also have enjoyment in sport. But we'll be talking a little bit more about how online abuse and harm can filter into kids sports and community sports, and I think we'd all agree as parents and members of the community, we've got to stop that before it proliferates further.

Tim Gavel: Yes, the speed of change has been quite incredible. Sarah, what about you? What stands out to you as the most urgent issue?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: I think as CEO of Sport Integrity Australia, the most urgent thing is making sure that sporting organisations at all levels are equipped to respond and respond in a timely way, and most appropriate way. That way we can give the right assurances to those that are impacted by online harm, the assurances that they need. I think what I've observed coming into sport, more broadly, is these threats and harms don't sit neatly in one sport at any level or one country, and as these issues and integrity threats manifest, they permeate our national frameworks and structures like other threats didn't or haven't before.

So, it's really important that we're working together across the system to make sure as those threats move across borders or traditional frameworks and legal frameworks, that we are able to respond collaboratively. And I think we've even seen that as behaviours spill over from the online into the real world, we need different responses and need to be able to be connected with our partners in order to respond.

Tim Gavel: Julie, obviously we see the risks that currently exist. What's the gap between the risks and how sports are responding and sporting organisations are handling online abuse.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: We really need to move beyond compliance and embed online safety into everyday operations, rather than just responding when something goes wrong. I think we're at the point where almost nothing surprises us anymore. I'm thinking about the last 9 and a half years I've spent in this role, and we've seen online targeted racism, homophobia, misogyny. I remember landing from overseas and getting a phone call from Prime Minister Morrison, it was all about the response to the Tayla Harris photo; which was to me, an athlete in flight, it was such a beautiful photo, and he was absolutely disgusted with the online invective.

And so, I think some of this has been so confronting to us, like, really, you know, where are these people coming from? So, I think what we really need to do is, again, be proactive and preventative in our strategies.

And so that means raising awareness, which we've been doing really well with Sport Integrity Australia. We've got a jointly developed Sports Hub, but we need to build capability amongst all members of clubs and teams so that when something happens, they know how to respond rather than doing it on the fly. And that means knowing when to come to eSafety to report online abuse or when to go to police.

So, delivering the education and we've delivered quite a few sets of training. We often train new players. When you think about the professionals too, they're coming in here and they're expected to be role models, and they're thrust out into the public and into the media and social media, and we need to give them the tools they need to not only promote their voices online, but also to protect them. And then I think we need to continue strengthening policies. But what I'd say about the risks that we want to surface up is, like I said, how online abuse is really filtering down into kids’ clubs and sports.

So, we'll be announcing the findings from some pretty confronting research that we did that showed that 18% of kids in community sport are receiving cyberbullying. Sometimes it's through online chat, sometimes it's social media, but often it's from parents or teachers or coaches in their orbit, and it's what we would call lateral abuse, so, it's happening from with the within the organisation, which is very troubling.

Tim Gavel: Well, that is a worry because it's going from the sporting field to the wider sections of people's lives and it's very hard to police, isn't it, when it when it goes into other areas.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: For all the ills of social media, when it's online, it's visible. And what we worry about there is the amplification of harm and the normalisation of these kinds of racist, misogynistic or homophobic behaviours for instance. We know that 6% of kids are actually experiencing online hate, which is at a much higher level being targeted based on their culture, their religion or their gender.

When you think about, some of the initiatives we're undertaking at the highest levels of government, like our social media minimum age, you often hear the Prime Minister say, ‘hey, we want more kids out on the sporting field rather than on social media’, this is recognising that they are interrelated, and we do want them to be enjoying sport, every element of it.

We have rules of engagement on the field and on the court. We need to have the same rules of engagement applied to club and organisational sports where online abuse is concerned as well.

Tim Gavel: I'll ask you about the gender issue in just a moment. But Sarah, the protection of athletes on and off the court, that is paramount to Sport Integrity Australia, isn't it? As Julie was mentioning there, you know, we do have rules for what happens on the sporting field, but away from the sporting field, often the rules become a little blurred.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: They do. And I think sporting organisations and the leaders of sporting organisations are really challenged, in, I guess, policing or responding to those threats as they arise. It's certainly, from the leaders that I've met with and continue to work with across sports, there is a true commitment to make sure that they are providing safe environments for everyone that participates in sport.

So, we have really strong partnerships to make sure that we are recognising where those integrity threats are coming from and how we can all work better together to work seamlessly across the agencies, across the organisations and across the levels. Because, at the centre of all of these issues are people, or more than one person, who are impacted by this.

So, it's really important. And the desire to respond quickly, but also in an appropriate way, is something that creates challenges for leaders, but a strong desire to make sure that they are accountable and transparent and really protecting the privacy and the safety of those all involved. So, it's a really challenging area, but there sure is that commitment across sporting organisations to come on this journey together and make sure we are strengthening the system as a whole.

Tim Gavel: What about gender targeting? We have heard from a number of people in this podcast series talking about the fact that women as leaders are targeted far more than men. How do you handle something like that?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Yeah, certainly the research, the stats, the data, across almost every country and almost every sporting organisation, do support that, that women are targeted as are other community groups across society. They do face a vulnerable environment that they enter, either as leaders, for simply making decisions or trying to make the environment stronger. And, I think the public commentary, the fan base, just the general public can't see necessarily the full picture. They don't have, necessarily, the full depth to what the issues are and what the strategies are to protect individuals.

So, I guess it makes it challenging, for sports leaders to make sure that there is that full awareness so that those criticisms, that abuse – whether or not it's officials on the sport field or athletes who are performing well or not so well – are protected. So, it's a really challenging environment. But the research, the data, is not necessarily getting any better in support of those community groups that are vulnerable in sporting environments.

Tim Gavel: Yes, Julie. You mentioned there Taylor Harris, we have spoken to sporting CEOs who are women who feel as though they're targeted far more than men. If Taylor Harris, that photo had been a man, it would have been lauded as a great photo. Because she was a woman, she was targeted with online abuse.

So, there is a real feeling out there, isn't there, that sometimes it does become gender specific and women are targeted more than men.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: Women are targeted in sport, in business, in government, in journalism, and that's why I started a program called ‘Women in the Spotlight’ or WITS back in 2018.

 And we deliver a social media self-defence course specifically for women in sport and these other fields. What's really important to understand, and you saw a perfect microcosm of that playing out with the Tayla Harris incident, is that online abuse against women manifests differently than it does against men, and it's obviously tied to gendered norms that still exist in society, which are actually moving backwards rather than forwards, given the current geopolitical environment.

But it tends to be violent, sexualized, about traditional roles; you know, women should be in the kitchen rather than on the footy field. It has to do with their age, their appearance, their weight. And we've seen all of this manifesting in the kind of online abuse that exists towards women.

So, one of the things that we have done is we've made our social media self-defence training available to women in sport. I also just want to go back to how concerned I do think coaches and officials are. We've signed a number of MoUs around codes of conduct. I think there is broad scale awareness across the sporting community that this is an issue that's here to stay and it needs to be really addressed proactively and firmly. And so, it's taken a while to get there, but I think that moment has arrived and it's time for us to really move forward and combat this in any way that we can.

And I'd just like to say, one of the things that we can do as the online safety regulator is we can offer a safety net to individuals. We have a cyberbullying scheme, the only one in the world.

We have an image-based abuse scheme, when intimate images are shared without consent, these are often off field activities. But we have to remember that the more you're in the spotlight, the more your intimate images are currency to the media, and to others. And this this goes for AI, and I'm very concerned about how AI can be manipulated to nudify, to undress, to show people in sport doing insane things they didn't say or do. It's a very murky area and there are very few guardrails, but they can report to us at esafety.gov.au.

We’ll continue to work with SIA on developing the education and awareness materials and will keep pushing those out, and then we can provide system level support as well.

Tim Gavel: So, can you actually, we have spoken to a number of people in this series, we've talked about, getting certain things blocked before it comes to them, getting information taken down, images taken down. So, that's part of what you do.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: Yep. That's part of what we do. We have four different schemes that are probably relevant here, an adult cyber abuse scheme, but I would say that the threshold is very high. We have to prove, because of freedom of expression issues, we have to prove serious intent to harm and not mere emotional distress.

And it has to be menacing, harassing and offensive. We have a lower threshold where intimate imagery is concerned; we have about a 98% success rate in getting that down. And then the youth-based cyberbullying scheme is very successful as well, because I think even most of the social media sites that will permit more harmful content, kids are still off limits and things fall through the cracks. So, we can do that.

The government is now also working on something called a digital duty of care, which is predicated on eSafety’s ‘Safety by design’ initiative. So exactly as you said, working to build a scheme where we put the burden back on the platforms who have developed the most sophisticated linguistic and symbolic content moderation systems in the history of man. They know how to prevent and detect and prevent the hosting, sharing and amplification, and generation of this content.

But right now, outragement creates a vicious circle where players and sports teams are concerned, but it creates revenue opportunities for the platforms, so we need to put accountability back on them to stop it at the start.

Tim Gavel: And Sarah, just on sporting leaders, I guess we've heard from the eSafety Commissioner just about their mechanisms, what about sports leaders? How do they handle issues of online harm?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Yeah. So, there's, I guess, a number of policies that sit at different levels throughout sport but also Sport Integrity Australia is very focused on making sure that sporting organisations, at all levels, have the tools and resources they need to be able to not only respond but identify and also build positive cultures to try and shift towards that preventative space so that we are protecting rather than simply responding.

So, that is a key focus and obviously, in partnership with the eSafety commissioner, that is an absolute essential tool, making sure that, as I said, going back to my first response, that organisations are able to respond appropriately and in a timely way. So that's probably our biggest area of focus.

But there's a number of other things as well in the national coordination and national capability building space as well. So, our national Integrity manager framework is really critical as being a line of first defence or first point of contact in sporting organisations, and we are building capability into those integrity managers across sport, so that's really positive.

But also, national coordination across other government agencies, including law enforcement, to make sure that we are increasing and improving the way we're sharing information across government agencies and those agencies that have a common purpose or a shared purpose in protecting those in our community, and particularly, protecting all sporting participants. So, really important that we perform that role on behalf of sport.

Tim Gavel: Makes it tough, though, doesn't it? If sporting leaders themselves are being targeted online, as we've heard from CEOs in this sporting podcast series; how do they handle it, given that they're tasked with protecting their sports and their participants? What happens when they're under fire themselves?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: It's a real challenge. And I think you would have heard it in the previous podcast episode, because navigating the system, as I said earlier, the challenges span the online world, the physical world. They span, multiple agencies, legal frameworks, and it's a challenge.

But, having agencies or organisations like Sport Integrity Australia, the eSafety Commissioner, the law enforcement networks, to be able to support individuals to navigate that complexity, I think that that's a role we can play. And I think as we look over the horizon, how can we identify where the gaps or the challenges are against the emerging trends so that we can be proactive in shaping the system for the future so we make it easier to navigate in a preventative way, but also, as needed, in a responsive way as well.

Tim Gavel: Julie, calling out issues of online abuse, people are becoming more aware, but more education is needed I'd suggest in this area so that people know what is right and wrong, where they can report what goes over the line; we're talking about people who are abused online, and I'd assume that you fall very much into this space in that they come to you and say ‘what can you do about it?’. But what level is deemed to be crossing the line?

Julie Inman Grant PSM: I think this is a whole of society responsibility and the kind of content that we see playing out online reflects underlying values and attitudes. There is something called the disinhibition effect, we sometimes see it in road rage when people are driving, and it's even worse when people are behind a keyboard and perhaps they're exercised about the way a particular game is going and they probably do and say things that they wouldn't say and do to a person's face. What we need to do is make sure that we're really clear about where responsibility and accountability lie.

We can do certain things and we can certainly provide that engagement, but we need to make sure that on the ground that when someone is experiencing online abuse, through one of these clubs or teams, that we're making sure that we’re taking it seriously, that we're using a human centred approach, particularly for young people who can feel a lot of distress. 

I go back to something that Tanya Hosch said to me years ago that really brought everything home to me, around what a lot of Indigenous players in the AFL experience. They're experiencing racism in their everyday life. It's almost like death by a thousand cuts that is exacerbated every time they get a toxic or corrosive post or worse, a pile-on.

So, we as organisations and as leaders have to take responsibility and say the buck stops here. And there have been some really interesting approaches to trying to identify who say, the MCG members are, and preventing them from having some real consequences for these actions, which is very hard to do in the online world. It's hard for us as a regulator. We're coming up against the wealthiest, most powerful companies in the world who are domiciled overseas.

We use the tools we can, when we can. It really has to start with where you are, and if we're all holding the line in terms of what we accept and don't accept and make sure there are consequences. I think this is something that we can certainly apply with kids sport and club sport. If you see a kid behaving this way, this is a perfect opportunity to correct those kinds of behaviours so it doesn't follow them into their adult life. Deterrence is really important, but also people aren't going to feel protected if the rules are broken and a red card isn't handed out.

Tim Gavel: Sarah, just on education, Sport Integrity Australia does a great job when it comes to anti-doping, when it comes to making complaints, abuse in sport, etc. Is this a hard area for Sport Integrity Australia to navigate? Because we're dealing with a lot of community sports that are getting push with some of their athletes being abused. It's so wide, isn't it? It's hard to narrow focus on a specific area when it comes to education in this area.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Yeah, I think you're right, Tim. It's a real challenge. But all the integrity threats are a challenge because of the structure of sport. And we want to, as a national organisation, have the greatest impact at all levels and sometimes we are furthest away from where we want to have the greatest impact, as in the community level sport.

So, we do it in partnership and Play by the Rules, state level sporting organisations, national sporting organisations and national sporting organisations with disabilities are our key partners to make sure that we are building knowledge together and educating consistently and really clearly. There's always ways to improve how we educate and how we increase awareness, and that's certainly a focus, with our partners, on how we do that. And I think the, the other challenge that arises is because online harm or integrity threats to sport are so diverse and so varied.

We talk about harms arising from abuse, but those that are arising because of disgruntled gamblers abusing that may lead to competition manipulation or other vulnerabilities, or even as wide as availability of prohibited substances or doping methodologies that are just promoted from a wellness perspective.

There's a whole range of things that are enabled through that greater access that can manifest as integrity threats to sport. So, it's making sure that we've just got that solid understanding, and we empower our athletes and sporting organisations with that knowledge and with that awareness and that hopefully positions us towards a preventative space rather than responding. We can see some of the things that are coming, but we can't see everything.

So, it's about all of us staying connected and making sure we're increasing or updating that education awareness as we're seeing it or as we're expecting or anticipating it over the horizon.

Tim Gavel: Sarah, just on collaboration with the safety commissioner, how important is it for Sport Integrity Australia?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Oh, it's essential. As we explore and as we uncover how the online world enables some of those integrity threats to sport, it's absolutely a critical piece of the puzzle in our response, but also, as we prepare for the future, as we look towards 2032, we all have our eye on that as a bit of a target to make sure that we've got both our physical and precincts in check, but also our online environment as well. So, it's absolutely critical.

Tim Gavel: Yeah. So, I'd imagine this partnership between Sport Integrity Australia and the eSafety Commission is very important because you can provide an integrity aspect when it comes to sport. And Julie, you can provide that online experience. So, it's very important isn't it, to have this partnership.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: It sure is, and they can tell us what's happening on the ground. And so that helps us with trends. We're trying to keep an anticipatory eye on how technology is evolving and the harms along with it.

So, one that's been mainstreamed, but we started doing work around 3 or 4 years ago was around the manosphere and what a lot of people may not know is that often young boys and men come across manosphere or incelosphere influencers through fitness, physical fitness tips and health tips and sporting tips. They may want to be improving themselves and the way that the algorithms are starting to work. They will send them down much more damaging rabbit holes.

And for every problem, there is a solution. What young men tell us is that they're looking for role models. There are so many wonderful role models in sport. So, if we can do more again to promote these incredible athletes and the discipline they bring and the goodness that they bring to our country, to sport, which is part of Australian life, I think we can be a really powerful force when we work together, as an entire industry and such a potent cultural influence in Australia. I don't think there is this kind of engagement between regulators and sport integrity organisations anywhere else in the world and so this is really charting a course for the future.

As you say, 2032 will be a big opportunity for us to showcase this. Not only will we have the security infrastructure, but if we can have the online safety infrastructure in place as well to make sure that it's a thoroughly enjoyable experience for everyone, I think we'll be able to call that a big win.

Tim Gavel: Yes, and that plays into the culture aspect. Because that's what Sport Integrity Australia is endeavouring to do, is to create a better culture in sport in Australia, Sarah. Through education, through avenues for sports guidelines, National Integrity Framework. It's all part of creating that culture, which Julie was just talking about.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Yeah, absolutely. And when we look at most of our, probably biggest or most challenging integrity threats to sport, every time we have a discussion with our peers, we always come back to the solution is we've got to address our young; our children and our young people because the solutions sit with them. They're the future of our country. They're the future of sport.

So, a huge focus is that education awareness, we don't want to, and we're already seeing it through some of our research, we don't want those incidental behaviours to become accepted and normalised over time. And that's, I think, that's the risk, and that's the sort of mini crisis point that we might be at the moment.

And so, it's really on us to make sure that at all levels we call out, we identify, what is unacceptable behaviour, and not to come down hard, but to make sure that our responses are visible and understood, so that we can start building that cultural change. As leaders model this collaboration, and model and have a very visible presence, I think that sets the tone for our agencies to be working together as well, which again, helps shift that culture.

For us, I was thinking back to, you know, parents abusing referees, referees handing out red cards, like it's just a cyclical response to issues. To change the culture, it means everybody who plays a part in sport, from parents to fans to officials to coaches, that they understand and visualise what good and acceptable behaviours look like on the field and online and that we all work together to uphold those accountabilities. So, that's the only way we're going to change the culture both online and physically, that we all know our roles.

Tim Gavel: Yes. Coaches and parents play an enormous part in this, don't they? And I guess Julie and Sarah, you’re parents yourself, you understand exactly the influence that you can have on young children. I guess parents need to know their responsibility, but coaches are with young athletes all the time.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: I think we've all been there on the sideline where we've heard some or been very uncomfortable by an overzealous parent or coach who's either criticising their own child or another child on their team or, or whatever it is. We understand what that looks like and we have rules of engagement on the field.

We need to bring these into digital spaces and just for something for everyone to remember, that's easy to remember, what I call the four Rs. They apply universally, including online. 

And that's Respect. Responsibility. So, taking responsibility for your actions. The need to build digital Resilience, the way we build resilience on the sporting field, but also critical Reasoning skills.

We use that for strategy on the field, but we really need to be able to better discern what's real and what's not and what's okay and what is not. So those four Rs are something I think apply to everyone.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: I think just going back to taking that philosophy and those guidelines is the online world can be such a positive means for change as well, and we don't want to lose sight of that. We get very much focused and we are obviously because we're trying to protect against integrity threats, but as we shift the culture, we've really got to think about, which sometimes we lose sight of, just the positive means in which the online environment provides for us to help shift that culture through those positive role models. I mean, amazing. 

Most children look up to somebody in their lives, whether or not it's a sporting star or somebody else in another industry. How do we use the online world to promote that hard work, that discipline, that respect, and all of those things that we're trying to instil in our young?

Tim Gavel: Have you thought much about the trends that you anticipate over the next 3 to 5 years? Have you thought, you've got to look out for this? I guess AI is an obvious one, but have you thought about things that we should look out for?

Julie Inman Grant PSM: I think AI is going to be challenging us in in a range of ways, because there is a little bit of an AI sovereignty arms race happening elsewhere and there's a lot of pushback on regulation. We're using our tools and standards to the extent we can and our complaint schemes, but we talk about, they're very visible harms happening today, we don't want them to become more catastrophic. Other than sort of turning the tide of bad behaviour online, I want to just go back to something very positive that Sarah said. Teams wouldn't have started to build social media presence and require the players to have it if it didn't add incremental value to the game, to the fan experience, to the really positive engagement players and coaches can have with fans.

So, what we have to do with any new technology is look at how we harness the benefits and minimise the risks and the harms.

Tim Gavel: Sarah, the next 3 to 5 years, what do you see as the major threat?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: It's certainly obviously AI and all those advancements we anticipate or expect in technology and systems. But one that we're observing now obviously is with the exponential growth of online gambling, the impact that has on athletes. If a gambler loses a bet, then all bets are off for online abuse for an athlete – and even more concerning some of those areas of abuse extend to their families.

So, the real health and well-being impact of that abuse is just exponentially growing. As much as online gambling continues, and Australia is an attractive market to bet on our sport, we need to make sure we're finding a way to protect our athletes. I think the other concerning area is, as the online threats evolve, we are seeing some of those interactions spill over or out of the online platforms into the physical world.

It's not just – and it's probably the most serious concern, the mental health impacts – but it's also concerns around stalking and fixated behaviours which we're seeing, that's a concern. People are fearing for their safety, and also sport leaders are concerned about how they create a safe physical environment as well as online environment for their participants and for their workforce. I think the other thing that we're starting to understand, and look into more as well, is the intersection between integrity threats.

So, we might have things like illicit drug use and links to problem gambling, or online abuse linked to performance and then competition manipulation. So, just trying to take a look at that intersection. We are fortunate in Sport Integrity Australia to have a holistic view and response to integrity threats in sport, that's not mirrored globally and we certainly are leading the way there, so, we are maximising that opportunity because we do have those insights at hand to look at.

Tim Gavel: Julie, do you think that sport can be heartened by what we've heard so far today in that Sport Integrity Australia, eSafety Commissioner, working together for the betterment of sport and to protect all involved in sport?

Julie Inman Grant PSM: One hundred percent. We've made leaps and bounds over the past 5 or 6 years. I think the problem is fully recognised and people are very focused on solutions and working cooperatively with the organisations like ours that are trying to drive that change.

Tim Gavel: Sarah, you feel as though we're heading in the right direction in terms of protecting athletes?

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: I do. As I said, coming into sport, working with sport leadership teams and our counterparts across government, there is a strong commitment and strong expertise and knowledge there for us to build on. When I think about what's going to help us get there, it's our common purpose, and I think we do have a really strong commitment to that common purpose of protecting everyone in sport, and I think that will keep driving us into the future and to make sure that we are protecting sport and all those involved.

Tim Gavel: Alright Sarah, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you very much, Julie.

Dr Sarah Benson PSM: Thank you.

Julie Inman Grant PSM: Thank you for having us.

Tim Gavel: That was Julie Inman Grant and Dr Sarah Benson. As this series has highlighted, creating safer online environments in sport requires more than awareness. It takes leadership, collaboration and a sustained commitment to change. There's no single solution, but with the right systems, culture and accountability, sport has the opportunity to lead, not just to respond in this space.

For any information or advice about online safety and sport issues, please contact the Sport Integrity Australia office or the eSafety Commissioner.

Thanks for listening to On Side and our Online Safety in Sport series.

Acknowledgement of Country: As we share a yarn today, we honour the stories that have been told on this land for thousands of years and acknowledge the Ngunnawal people as the traditional custodians of the land we're recording on, and we pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

Sarah Cook OLY: I think also the fact that we are just reachable 24–7. It can happen to us at any time of day or night and that makes it really hard to switch off as well.

Campbell Harrison OLY: The way with which we engage on social media now is very fleeting so I think people are so disconnected from the fact that there's a human being on the other side or that they're commenting on a video forgetting that the person who's in that video is also seeing all of these comments.

Sarah Cook OLY: For me, there's absolutely a line where people are crossing into the unlawful, and I think when it is happening for a prolonged period, when it is one person who is really targeting you and is hyper-fixated on you and it's absolutely pervasive I think that's where it starts to cross the line and that's where I've taken a stand.

Campbell Harrison OLY: The more we can talk about it and destigmatise it and the more we can form community is only going to empower people. Maybe we can't stop the hate from coming, but we can feel a little bit more empowered to withstand it and to maintain a good self-esteem in spite of it, I guess.

Tim Gavel: Hello and welcome to On Side and episode 3 in our special series on online safety in sport. In this episode, we're focusing on the human impact of online harm, how it unfolds in real time, how it affects identity, safety and well-being, and what meaningful support actually looks like. Today we're joined by two respected voices who bring both lived experience and leadership perspectives. Campbell Harrison is an Olympic and elite sport climber who's represented Australia on the world stage for more than a decade. Thanks for joining On Side, Campbell.

Campbell Harrison OLY: Thank you for having me.

Tim Gavel: And Sarah Cook is a two-time Olympian and CEO of Rowing Australia, as well as a leader in global sport governance and athlete advocacy. Sarah, thanks for joining On Side.

Sarah Cook OLY: Thanks Tim.

Tim Gavel: Well, Sarah, firstly to you, what is the personal impact of online abuse and cyber abuse?

Sarah Cook OLY: Look, it's something that continues to grow and it's great to see that legislation is starting to catch up and obviously the work that Sport Integrity is doing in this space as well, but I think it's something that it feels like we're still really catching up with, but it is, it's exploded obviously with the use of social media and such a presence now in the online world. There was a period of time where you could choose to opt out of social media, it feels like we're reaching a stage, certainly professionally, whether it's using platforms like LinkedIn or using social media, Instagram and some of those platforms, so it really feels like it's something that you can't opt out of and even receiving emails and abuse via some of those other mechanisms, via a carriage service as well, and I think also the fact that we are just reachable 24–7. It can happen to us at any time of day or night and that makes it really hard to switch off as well. So I think it's just now the number, sheer number of opportunities and platforms on which you can be reached and the fact that there is no off switch to them.

Tim Gavel: Yes. Campbell, when did you realise that online attention had crossed over into online harm for you?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, for me, I think my experiences online were generally very positive until the sort of year prior to the Olympic Games when the IOC posted an image of myself and my partner Justin celebrating with a kiss after I qualified for the Olympic Games. Didn't know that the post was coming, accepted the request to be a collaborator on the post and kind of just didn't pay much more attention to it. And then, with the IOC page having, I think it's like 8 million Instagram followers, the kind of waves of messages and comments just sort of flooded in faster than anyone could keep up with them. And that was kind of my first real experience with proper online abuse, this like torrent of hate messaging that was really, really intense and I think, like you said, with the prevalence of social media, the fact that you can't really opt out of it and just the way with which we engage on social media now is very fleeting so I think people are so disconnected from the fact that there's a human being on the other side or that they're commenting on a video forgetting that somebody, the person who's posted that video, the person who's in that video is also seeing all of these comments. And so, yeah, I think it's been, it's something that kind of hit me all at once and I've definitely been a lot more aware of it ever since that moment.

Tim Gavel: Yes, it escalated quite quickly, didn't it?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, really quickly. I think the comments, so many people were sort of criticising the organization, 'Why aren't they moderating these comments?' I'm like, 'They are moderating the comments'. The comments were just coming in so much faster than anyone could delete them. It's like multiple comments every few seconds, and for months, even maybe a year or two after, every now and again, I'll get a comment and a lot of it is nice and then a lot of it is not very nice. Yeah, it's just...

Tim Gavel: How did it impact you personally?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Well, it's funny. So I think prior to this instance, I thought I'd kind of experienced online homophobia and online bullying and I felt pretty like immune to it, I felt pretty tough, and then I think it was just because I'd never seen it in this kind of, at this kind of immensity before. So it definitely hit me pretty hard initially, it happened like the day before a World Cup, I think. So I was at the gym doing like an activation session before the comp and saw all of these messages, really, really awful, brutal messages and memes and GIFs and it just like, it had me really upset initially. I think I was able to spin it around into a much more positive experience in a lot of ways when the kind of, the support to combat the hate kind of came in and changed the narrative a little bit. But yeah, it was just so fast.

Tim Gavel: What about you, Sarah, your personal experience with online harm?

Sarah Cook OLY: It's so interesting hearing your experience as an athlete because my time as an athlete, I finished competing in 2015, so it really sort of predated social media as we know it now. I mean, I joined Facebook during my career when that had just started and so to think back to, I think 2005, 21 years ago that Facebook kind of took off, to where we are with social media now, it is such a different landscape, and for athletes really living their lives in full public visibility, whether it's their own pages, their teammates' pages, the organisation's pages, so, or platforms, I should say, so to think about the athlete experience is so different to what I went through and in many ways, I know that I and others from generations before me go 'Oh my gosh, thank goodness there wasn't social media', because it is different now, and you don't know who also could be filming you or taking content from you and posting that without your knowledge. So it really is an area that's changing so rapidly, and the athlete experience within that has changed a lot. I guess for me now in my current role as a leader of a sporting organisation, you expect a level of scrutiny, which it comes with the role and with the organisation.

Tim Gavel: You're talking to me there about online conversations that don't border onto online harm.

Sarah Cook OLY: Yeah, that's right. So you do, you know that you will be held to a standard, you know that people will be critical of you, your performance, your decisions, and the performances of your organisation as well. But I think where it crosses a line is where it goes from being a, sort of a critical and maybe constructive sort of discourse into really starting to breach the legislation and the act and verging on things that would constitute abuse, harassment or offensive behaviour. So the act is quite explicit in terms of what content is permitted and what's not, and I think I've certainly experienced, and I know other professionals in the sporting sector have as well, that real crossing into being abuse, harassment and offensive in nature. And for some of them, just the unrelenting nature of them going on for years and via multiple platforms and that's what starts to take a toll, I think, is when there are individuals who are hyper-fixated on you or your organisation and really come after you. And what they're posting is not evidence-based and it absolutely breaches the legislation, and I think that's where we have to start taking a stand and calling out these people and these behaviours.

Tim Gavel: Stalking is another –

Sarah Cook OLY: Yeah.

Tim Gavel: – aspect of this. How did it impact on you personally?

Sarah Cook OLY: Yeah, so I have certainly been exposed to those behaviours, and it's interesting because this is my first role as a CEO, and so being a new CEO and, although coming up to three years I think I can still call myself a new CEO, and so really, stepping into that job and learning the role and I'm in my own sport as well. So that comes with another level of passion and responsibility, it does probably hit closer to home, perhaps. Being in the sport that I really love and care about. And when it's people from your own sport who start to turn on you in that way can be really difficult and really confronting, but I think I'm pretty thick skinned. I can take most, but there's certainly been, I'd say, perpetrators who really have forayed into just a hyper fixation and an unrelenting sort of focus on me, which is not evidence-based, conspiracy theory type stuff, stuff that's just not true, and that becomes really hard to deal with because it is bordering on to defamation, stalking, and those are the things that keep you up at night.

Tim Gavel: Tough for a CEO, I would imagine, because you're charged with protecting your athletes and your sport. Yet you've got to protect yourself in many aspects as well, haven't you?

Sarah Cook OLY: Absolutely, and I take that protection really seriously. Like I feel a real sense of protectionism for my organisation, for Rowing Australia, for my sport, and then for my staff and for the athletes, most importantly. And so if this behaviour was happening to them, there's probably no length I would stop at in order to protect them. But when it's on you, I think you do sort of keep just stepping forward and putting one foot in front of the other and trying to black out the noise, but once it gets to a certain point, it does start to really wear you down and affect you and I've absolutely experienced that.

Tim Gavel: What about safeguards, Campbell? Are there safeguards in place for somebody like you as an Olympic athlete? What protection do you have?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say and I think it's something that the space is kind of still coming to grips with because like I said, in my instance, the hate was very, the source was very non-specific. It was people all over the world, from all different walks of life, and there's no like one simple system that could have moderated what was coming through. But I did feel very supported by the AOC and the AIS and the people at the Olympic Games. I felt like I was safe and cared for in that respect. But yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, it is good to know, I think most sports, or at least my sport, is definitely taking integrity of athletes and staff and volunteers, et cetera, very, very seriously and it's nice to know that there are people to turn to who are responsible for sort of getting you through these experiences and supporting you and hopefully trying to nullify it as best as they can, but I think it's hard to navigate, especially when some of this is coming from anonymous sources. I know we had, I've seen similar instances in my sport of one of our athletes was also serving on the executive body and they found their email address and was sending them awful messages about their results. We had a coach who was receiving pretty nasty threats and ultimately had to leave the position, this was many years ago. But it's a really tough space to navigate and a hard one to police, I think.

Tim Gavel: How important is it too, to speak out about your experiences, and you too, Sarah, so that other people know that they're not alone in this battle against online harm and abuse?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, I mean, I do think it's really important and also, like, I think it helps us not sort of minimize our experiences when they do happen. I think when I first got asked to come on board for this podcast, my initial response is, I haven't experienced any online abuse, and then I thought about it, I was like 'Oh, no, I've experienced a lot of online abuse actually.' And I just like completely minimized it in my head as just part of the course, something that athletes have to put up with if we're, to any degree public facing. But no, I think it's important to speak out and be vocal, not only to help other athletes, but also just, I think it just maybe helps remind people who want to leave maybe more critical comments that, just reminding them that they are read and they are perceived by the individuals who they're directed towards and it's not just, you're not just like throwing words out into the ether, into the void, they're about somebody and they do affect us. And I think it's easy with the modern era of social media to just swipe through and leave a comment, but I think maybe athletes being more vocal about these sorts of issues just maybe will help remind at least a few people that there's a human on the other end of the screen.

Tim Gavel: Because your abuse wasn't just about sport, about sexuality –

Campbell Harrison: Yeah.

Tim: – so it's very much a personal thing, isn't it? It's not just saying 'Oh listen, you didn't perform all that well.'

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, exactly, yeah. It's an interesting one because I think at the end of the day, as much as you could put safeguards in place or I can go on any podcast with any microphone and talk about how I'm a person too but at the end of the day, by nature of being a gay man, people aren't going to respect my personhood to some degree. So I don't think there's, to some extent, there's not much you can do about some of that. Hey, it is just going to come. But I guess speaking out maybe helps create like a sense of community, and for me, the most important thing in getting through my experience was when it became known that it was happening to me, watching my entire sporting community, people I'd never spoken to in my life, even huge names within the sport, coming together to rally behind me and like people really going to battle for me in the comments. And I think had I just either like brushed it under the rug, said nothing or turned my social media off and not seen any of those comments, I think it would have actually been a much more difficult experience for me to get through and I would have probably felt a lot more alone and would have internalised that negative messaging much more deeply. So the more we can talk about it and destigmatise it and the more we can form community is only going to empower people to. Maybe we can't stop the hate from coming, but we can feel a little bit more empowered to withstand it and to maintain a good self-esteem in spite of it, I guess.

Tim Gavel: Were you inclined to respond to some of the hate?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Look, I didn't respond to much of it. Honestly, like I said, it came in way too fast for me to even fathom responding to it. It was like, especially in the first weeks, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages a day, whether positive or negative, my inbox was just flooded and I didn't really respond to much. I did respond to one message in particular, I remember it was from a young person and I kind of challenged it and ended up having some really good conversations with this person and we still follow each other on Instagram now and I think that was actually a really powerful instance where I was kind of able to turn someone around a little bit. But for the most part, I try not to engage with it too much, unless I'm being funny. Like if I have like something really witty I want to drop, then perhaps, but just like going to war in Instagram comments, I think doesn't really support anyone's goal and it's probably just going to leave me feeling more upset than anything.

Tim Gavel: Sarah, as a CEO, there is, I guess, a fine line because you don't want to show vulnerability by calling it out because you are there as the strong leader. Is that a fine line for you to go that far and to call it out and say 'Listen, it's not acceptable because I'm being targeted?' How do you deal with that?

Sarah Cook OLY: Look, for the most part, I think I'm a bit like you, you just, you let the conversation carry on, people are entitled to have their opinions. I think the interesting thing about the online space is that they do often forget that there is a person at the core of it and many people who I think write these horrible things online, not all of them, but many of them, they would not come up and say that to you, to your face on the street, but they will write it in the comments and not be challenged to think about it. So you just sort of let this swirl go on around you, but I think for me, there's absolutely a line where people are crossing into the unlawful, and I think it's, when it is happening for a prolonged period, when it is one person who is really targeting you and is hyper-fixated on you and it's absolutely pervasive, I think that's where it starts to cross the line and that's where I've taken a stand and I've had to turn to the judicial system in that regard. But ultimately, you reach a point where you think, is this warranted? Is this within the realm of what I should be expecting in this role? And sometimes there are those where you go, no, it's not, this is not okay, this is not warranted and it's now starting to impact me and those around me and I need to take a stand because I would take a stand for staff or athletes if that was happening to them. So, you know, it's a bit like, putting your oxygen mask on first, right? If you're going to protect your organisation and those in the organisation with you, you have to be in a mental state that you're able to do that. And I think for me, some of these behaviours of some of these people have absolutely crossed that line.

Tim Gavel: Yes. When it starts impacting on family, like, I have heard from athletes in particular who say 'Listen, we can handle it, but when they start targeting our families, that's when it really hits home.'

Campbell Harrison OLY: I think something that's really upsetting as well is the degree to which your story echoes those of other high-ranking women within sport, especially within the organisational side of things, and I think it really makes a statement on how the sporting environment treats women, because I think that, yeah, hearing everything you're saying is something I've heard from other female CEOs, other female sporting officials, that there's this real cultural issue there in the way that the sporting culture approaches women and females in sport.

Sarah Cook OLY: Yeah, thank you for making that point because I think there is a heavily gendered lens to what I experience and other women CEOs, and I think it's not just in sport, it's women in leadership. We've obviously had women recently appointed to high ranking positions, whether it's the Governor General, whether it's the head of the ADF, whether it's the Federal Police Commissioner, we're seeing women in prominent positions and the unrelenting and absolutely vile abuse that they cop purely based on their gender is absolutely disproportionate and not aligned to what men in those positions receive. So there is a gendered lens and even the nature of some of the abuse and commentary I get is very clearly gendered and I think there's no way that would be said about a man.

Campbell Harrison OLY: No, 100%. I think women in high positions are held to so much higher of a standard to a degree to which it's unfair and also just, there's like an expectation or even a desire for women in high ranking positions to fail from, particularly from men outside of those positions. So yeah, I definitely, yeah, I think there's, that's one specific area of the discussion that needs to be addressed, is the vitriol that's afforded to, that's directed towards women that just isn't directed towards men in the same way.

Sarah Cook OLY: Yeah, and I think there's a violence element to that as well. With some of these particularly aggressive perpetrators, there's also not knowing if I was to run into this person, because it gets so aggressive and so targeted, you actually start to think, what would happen if I ran into this person at a rowing regatta or on the street? I actually don't know. I'm concerned for my personal safety and that this might actually start to transition from just being online into something that could happen in real life.

Tim Gavel: So what needs to be done, do you think? What would you like to see happen? Because as Campbell has said, it's a very hard thing to police a lot of the time, especially when it's coming in in such a way that even though the IOC, the AOC had protections in place at Paris, it's obvious that a fair bit got through. So what needs to be done, do you think?

Sarah Cook OLY: That's such a difficult question. Again, I think we're still trying to catch up with the technology. We at Rowing Australia use a particular tool, a company called Social Protect, which helps to actually eliminate negative commentary from some of our platforms and from some of our key athletes, just in a bid to try and protect them. Of course, it wouldn't protect what might come through in a direct message, but that's one mechanism we've chosen to put in place to help actually prevent our athletes from being exposed to really, really vile comments so that as soon as there's certain keywords that are triggered, the comments will be within milliseconds removed from the platforms. So that's one tool that we use. I think for me and the situation I've been in, it's, I mean, I've been, I've gone down the path of, as I said, using the judicial system and actually taking out protections for myself under law because they did reach a point where it just became unsustainable to continue as I was and there was a genuine fear of where things might head for me and it certainly got to the point where I thought it's going to make this role untenable for me to stay here if I don't take some kind of action that's going to help me to sleep at night. So I think being open to using that when you need to, but that takes a toll as well, it takes an emotional toll to go through those systems and those processes, to take out a personal protection order and things like that. So I think there's probably more thinking about what protections we might be able to legislate for or put in place so that people who are just trying to do their jobs, whether it's an athlete, whether it's a coach, whether it's a CEO, an administrator, ultimately we turn up wanting to do a good job. No one turns up to work wanting to do a bad job. And so being able to create an environment where you can confidently turn up, do your best work, do your best job, some days we might not get there, some days the team might not win the medals, but at the end of the day, it's just sport and everyone is trying to do their best job, so how do we create safe environments. There's probably more work for us to be done, or for us to do in that space and to come together and that's all of us, the National Sporting Organisation, Sport Integrity (Australia), and then obviously policymakers as well.

Tim Gavel: Do the blocking mechanisms work?

Sarah Cook OLY: I'm still going through one of those processes so, it has for now. The person, or one person that has been perpetrating some of that abuse certainly is abiding by the orders for now but yeah, only time will tell.

Tim Gavel: What about the AI use for athletes, et cetera? Have you found that to be effective?

Sarah Cook OLY: Absolutely. It eliminates those comments immediately, which I think is great because like you said, you can either go off the platforms, in which case you're not engaging, really, in a world which we can't continue to put our heads in the sand and avoid, we should be able to leverage social media and online platforms for all of the really great things that they can bring, which is getting our brands, getting our stories out there, athletes being brave enough to really show who they are and what they are and create their own personal brands as well, without fearing that that is a dangerous place for them to be. So, I think eliminating those comments as soon as they come in, does definitely help to add some protection there because you can't just, it takes a pretty thick skin to –

Campbell Harrison OLY: For sure.

Sarah Cook OLY: – to not take them on when they come, right?

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah.

Sarah Cook OLY: So if we can help support that in a little way, I think it's a good thing.

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, and just allowing athletes and all people within sport just to exist on social media the way that anybody can. I mean, so much of what was dictated towards me wasn't in a response, wasn't a response to me building my brand or trying to communicate some kind of message, it's just like, aspects of me living my life in the same way that anyone else does. And I think, there's a greater societal issue here, and it's, I mean, there's only so much that sport is going to be able to do, but there are small things that we can do and I think that's championing women's sport and championing women in leadership, championing and giving visibility to queer people and queer athletes or people of various denominations and just like, yeah, humanising the stories. I think it starts with young people, making sure young people are afforded experiences where women/girls are included and welcomed and valued equally within sporting spaces. I think there's a a huge societal shift that needs to happen beyond just covering up the messages, because I think that's an important part of protecting athletes, but how can we enact change and actually like, lessen the number of messages that are coming through? And I think it's about shifting attitudes. There's only so much any single organisation can do, but I think every little bit's going to play a part there.

Tim Gavel: Yes, interesting point you make because part of it is to educating people who are abusers online to fully understand the impact they're having on the mental health and welfare of the people they're abusing. But at the same time, that's probably what they're looking for is to have some impact. So...

Campbell Harrison OLY: 100%. I think it probably, if someone is already in a position where they want to be hurling abuse at an individual, there's probably only so much you can do to actually change their perspective and change their actions. But perhaps you can educate young people and educate people in a way that will dissuade them from engaging in such practices to begin with. Perhaps that's more creating spaces within sport where it's not acceptable to even just speak to each other in the locker room or in the field of play in hateful, discriminatory ways and teaching young people that it's wrong and why it's wrong. And I think maybe a more sort of ground up approach, I don't know, will hopefully encourage people to engage in more positive, productive ways, but I think it's such a big issue on a societal scale that goes so far beyond sport.

Tim Gavel: And a huge responsibility too for a CEO of a sporting organisation.

Sarah Cook OLY: Yeah, and I think sometimes people perpetrating, which in some cases can be crimes, doing this online, sometimes we're dealing with people who are not well themselves, and that gets really, that's really difficult too because you might be able to tell this person is clearly not well, the things they're saying, their behaviours, and often excuses can be made when that's the situation, but ultimately it's never okay to perpetuate that kind of behaviour, action, violence on others. So I think it is about taking a stand, not engaging with it, but going, this is a line and we're holding that line and we're going to take action based on what we have available to us to do that. Whether it's under the National Integrity Framework or whether it's ultimately under the legislation and going to law enforcement and going to police about it.

Tim Gavel: All right, Sarah. Thank you Campbell, thank you Sarah, for sharing your experiences. It's been great this morning. Thank you.

Sarah Cook OLY: Thank you.

Campbell Harrison OLY: Yeah, thanks for having us.

Tim Gavel: And today we've heard a powerful reminder that online harm is never just digital, it has a real and lasting impact on identity, safety and wellbeing, and today's chat reinforces that meaningful support, strong systems and a culture of care are critical across all levels of sport. If you or someone you know is experiencing online harm, support is available and reaching out is an important first step. Thank you very much for listening to On Side. Join us for our final episode in this special series about online safety and sport, we'll be speaking with the eSafety Commissioner, Julie Inman-Grant and Sport Integrity Australia CEO, Dr Sarah Benson. We'll see you soon.

Melissa Wu, Australian Olympic Diver: That seems a necessary part of sport that everybody goes through, but we're all doing it so that we can perform in an environment that's professional and has everybody on a level playing field. As athletes, we accept that that's part of the process.

Cruz Hogan, Australian World Representative Javelin Thrower: I'm very much in the opinion that we need it and we need it across the world and it needs to be fairly standardised as well.

Tayla Harris, AFLW player and professional boxer: The importance of anti doping testing is paramount to a safe sport and a clean sport and it's something I'm really passionate about.

Jodie Purves, Australian international representative cricket player: It's always something I've tried to promote not only within the cricket environment, even with say my nephews and nieces or people that are involved in sport that I know. It's why we play it. It just makes it more fun and safe for everyone.

Sarah Cook, CEO Australian Rowing and Former Olympic Rower: I remember I was told that it's actually something that you should be honoured to have the opportunity to do because what it signals is that you've reached a level in your career that actually being tested is something that's now part of what you're doing. So, it signals that you are making that step up in terms of being an elite athlete and an international athlete.

Alison Bai, former professional Australian tennis player: I was quite scared, quite nervous prior and going into it. The two Doping Control Officers and the chaperone were quite lovely and obviously I understood that I was a young person and my dad came along to obviously help supervise making sure I was OK and I knew what the process was.

Sam Fricker, Olympic Diver: The hard part can be if you're not ready to give a sample. I know I got tested at Australian Champs and because I was competing I didn't drink too much water during the day. Of course you need fluids to give a sample, so I had to go get a coffee with my mum and they were just standing behind me very politely waiting. I felt kind of bad but you know, if you're not ready to give a sample, you gotta wait because if you give a half sample too, they can't accept it.

Campbell Harrison, Olympic Climber: My advice to athletes up and coming would be ask lots of questions, especially if you have people around you who are really familiar with the process. I think that was important to me and something that I see is very important, being able to pass on that knowledge and experience to others.

Mack Horton, Australian Olympic Swimmer: I think for me, it is staying true to the values and beliefs and behaving in a way that Australians, the public, Australian athletes expect as well and upholding those those values on the world stage.